Luka Prinčič [ ☕💻🎶🎛️ ]
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I'd like to see patronage of arts to be normalized as an ethical standard of civilized life. Like it's completely normal to stop on a red light - it's not because you feel sorry for those who are waiting to cross the street, but because it's normal, an agreed practice, a rule.

Every time I see an artist posting their patreon page asking for support because they can't make ends meet I feel sick because that person has to beg in this way. Then motivation for patronage has a color of pityness.

@luka (off-topic, but I'd like pedestrians and cyclists to have automatic right of way at all crossings, and car drivers to have to press a button and wait for ages.)

@luka
i think you need to bring down current worldwide manifestation of captialism to make this happen

the arts have physical residue- which can become commodities
(prints, recordings, ...)
these work in a capitalist economy

but the experience of art resists this transformation
(could explain more, but that a different discussion)
it's anti-capitalist in it's very nature
("surplus value" cannot be transferred, is indivdual)
thus worthless (priceless)

🌚

@js0000 I think I understand what you are talking about, and I couldn't agree more. Although I think that even "experience" is to some degree commodified as well, driven by crisis of physical containers/media and virtualisation/digitalisation of increasing number of aspects of life.

Note though that to some degree government and local arts funding system is such normalized patronage through taxes (very generally looking). Although it's in very few countries that this actually works for at least majority of the artists - possibly in Scandinavia? Slovenia is still better than many places in larger Europe but it's getting worse and worse year by year.

@luka Not in Scandinavia. At least not in Sweden. There are _very_ few avenues for public funding of the arts, though some exists. It's a far cry from "majority" though.

@pettter yes, i have not enough knowledge on skandinavia and assumed badly...

@luka do you imagine science without public funding ? I think it's the same for "art and culture" for a big part of it. There are very diverse "roles" that an artist can take to adress the publics aside the pure creation process, from performances to writing to teaching, and both the creation and the transmission process should be supported by public funds like it is for other fields.
In Be it's supposed to be partly this way, but it's rotten by "friends" politics and chronical underfunding

@luka
yess! Why limit subsidizing to artists though?
Freeing anybody from the need to care for their survival would enable them to live in a more creative mindset.
And normalized creativity is a multiplicator for many things things our society needs (participation, openness,...)

This makes the term 'artist' in its current form ('person trying to capitalize aesthetics for survival, possibly out of passion') kinda meaningless, as creating is then about passion, not need.

@norwin
Maybe: creating is about passion, and art is ultimately about resistance.

Otherwise I agree with the idea that creativity is everything and everywhere and currently still very undervalued.

suddenly i have a fantasy that an artist would have his own "agent" on governmental level in the cultural ministry that would act as a multi-level interdisciplinary connector - they would meet with you on regularily to see what are you working on and what opportunities are there for you as an artist to get exposure, grants, funding all tailored to your art practice, no matter how outrageously experimental. this person would take care of you and listen and know what you need more than yourself.

@luka they have tried something like that around here (more 'creative industries' than fine art) but the trouble is the advisors tend to be too domain specific to their fields still

@luka I think if art is a public good then it has to be public funded. Private funding leads in a very different direction, both are required really...

@nebogeo but i also ponder how public/private is crowdfunding-kind of patronage? to some degree it's public, although not 'whole' public in the sense that everyone pays taxes into gov budget which then allocates such and such amount to culture which is then further distributed through ministry councils boards commissions and applications... it seems such a long road compared to something like Patreon (or LiberaPay) .. of course there are other pros and cons.

@luka Crowdfunding is private and commercial - and as such not determined by democratically elected representatives. Commercial transactions are much more direct indeed, but you are playing as part of a market place - so competition is different.

@luka form follows funding - there are definitely things you can't do in a market place that you can with public goods, and vice versa.

@luka for me these things go wrong when this is mixed up - e.g. public money being spent on maximising profit for a private company or private money spent on something the state should be in control of

@luka for arts specifically my favourite 'purpose' which cuts across both is "conspicuous waste" - we are so RICH and SUCCESSFUL that we can splash money to these crazy people (not so common these days outside of China)

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