Hey, y'all-- Facebook recently announced they're launching a "Patreon killer" service.
Regardless of your thoughts on Patreon, FB's alternative is TERRIBLE!
⚠️ 30% gross revenue fee
⚠️ Automatic LIFETIME IP rights to ANYTHING you put on the service
even if you quit!
⚠️ FB wants to give discounts and freebies whenever they like, w/o creator approval, and then deduct it from creator revenue
⚠️ FB will also control WHO sees your content and how many views you have
I know facebook is pretty hated here (with good reason), but I hope as many artists as possible hear about this and stay the FUCK away from it.
Those of us who are a bit older may remember TokyoPop. That seemed like a dream opportunity for young creators-- get your work published! But it was all a scam designed to prey on people who weren't experienced enough to know a bad creator deal.
A LOT of folks got burned by TokyoPop. And this FB thing looks even worse.
So PLEASE tell your art friends!
Also, (more wisdom via Spike Trotman) NEVER, EVER sign away lifetime IP rights! That's the most important thing you have as a creator!
If you want to make money from your work, great! Put it on prints, merch! License it! Etc!
But there's really nothing that's worth complete, total, *lifetime* control of your work! Because once you've signed your IP rights away, that's IT.
@denikombucha Yeah, Spike Trotman's already summed this up perfectly on her twitter:
"This is a blatant grab for what is literally your most valuable property as a creative.
It's shameless & predatory & the wildest fantasy of terrible people slavering to recreate the power pyramid with creatives at the bottom. AGAIN."
Facebook is the anti christ birthed from Zuckerbarg's opportunistic asshole.
@katwylder a lot of people (even fairly well known pop celebrities of Gen X era) have been stitched up by handing over their IP rights to a gatekeeper (who often doesn't then let them have/share archives of their own creations and/or even even destroys them if they cost too much to keep). There are whole gaps in my/our cultural history (of things that should be online) because of this and it sometimes takes the patience of a saint and mind of a sinner to get past some of todays "IP protection.."
@katwylder can you tell me more about TokyoPop's shadiness?
I only remember it from the consumer end of things.
@polychrome Oof. the TokyoPop thing was... a LOT. (FYI, I was never directly involved in it, I've only seen the fallout.) I will try to be brief.
So, TP made a name for itself by importing some popular titles, and keeping manga in its original format. (Early manga was always flipped.) But eventually, they weren't content with focusing on quality. They wanted *quantity*, and flooded the market by licensing anything they could get their hands on, regardless of how good it was.
@polychrome Meanwhile, the CEO was an "ideas guy" not a "running a business effectively guy." So TP did a million things half-assed, instead of a few things well. Including Original English Language (OEL) titles.
First they basically underpaid OEL creators. Then, they changed from that to essentially asking for spec work. Submit work -> then get paid IF you're accepted.
The contracts were terrible, too. IP rights, moral rights (i.e., right to be credited) all signed away for a song.
@polychrome The pay was paltry, and a lot of creators never GOT paid.
Especially when TP started putting OEL titles on digital platforms. And they definitely didn't release sales data on that, either.
At one point, TP tried to wiggle out of its obligations by saying they went bankrupt ("oh no, we have no moneeeeyyyy!!!") but they never actually *filed* for bankruptcy.
@polychrome If you wanna go further down this rabbit hole, here are some links:
@katwylder well that was a read. What a mess.
Thanks for the information - I also sat down and read the contract^Hpact at https://web.archive.org/web/20090219232107/http://www.tokyopop.com/ugc/tokyopop/uploads/misc/Manga%20Pilot%20Agreement%20solo%20v1_3%20(2008-Feb-01).pdf and wow that's just bad.
Things like this constantly keep appearin in my timeline: online companies abusing their users. (Just minutes ago there was this talk about email, and I remembered how protonmail cancelled a user's account without giving explanations)
Technology cannot save us from corporations (wasn't this one of the main lessons in cyberpunk?).
The only way to save ourselves is not to depend on corporations in the first place. We need reliable non-profit services.
I remember the TP thing as a kid and not really understanding it. There was an OEL title I was really excited about that never came out, and I found the original author and looked them up and asked about the work.
They put a positive spin on "TokyoPop took away my IP" to "Tokyopop found a new creator for it, look forward to it soon =)" I just get so upset remembering that.
@Aellope Ugh, that's so awful. :(
@katwylder It'll probably end up along the lines of "Pay us so we can profit from selling your product to a larger number of people."
@saadazim Oh, that's exactly what they're going for.
The only reason to have a ToS like this is to snap up as many properties as possible for dirt cheap and then send try to wring out a line or merchandise or screenplay or something of that kind from one of their acquisitions.
@katwylder It's a sleazy, but not-uncommon practice of casting as wide a net as possible, and catching that one up & coming cash-cow IP that'll make them all the money. -_-
@saadazim Oh yeah. I've heard from comic artists that's not unusual to see some sleazeball wandering artist alleys trying to pick up IP rights for pocket change.
Sequential artists need to be especially vigilant about this. A lot of jerks out there see comics/GNs as nothing more than an instant movie pitch they can buy up for cheap.
@katwylder If it didn't have "facebook" attached to it, I'm 99% sure nobody would even be talking about this alternative. Good Lord, that's some pretty cruddy stipulations.
yikes why would anyone use this over patreon?
like other than people simply not knowing about pateron I can't imagine why anyone would pick FB's thing over them?
@DJWalnut According to people who have FB, they already hide patreon links. :/
But yeah, I would definitely warn any creators you know away from this. I can't stand the idea of some hopeful kid getting fleeced out of their IP rights.
@DJWalnut Unfortunately I doubt it. Art and creative fields are severely undervalued. :/a
Personally, I think the best thing artists can do to protect themselves is to connect with other artists, especially those who are experienced and willing to share what they've learned.
Then once you're the Wizened Elder Artist, turn around and try to teach the next generation to how to spot these pitfalls.
That's one of the worst terms of service I've seen since...well, Facebook.
I think what really concerns me here is how this could easily become the standard for what is considered an "acceptable" way to treat a content creator.
@katwylder Funny, they seemed like such nice kids up until now.
... just when you thought you hate on Facebook couldn't get any bigger... 😠
@katwylder Thanks for sharing this though 😊
@katwylder @aral That sounds similar to some "we own everything you publish"-clause that I encountered when I for some weird reason actually read FB's EULA when they at first launched here, so I have boycotted them ever since and have only added more and more reasons to since them.
I genuinely am perplexed and disappointed as to why people are still there.
@katwylder Facebook is showing desperation here. Scared of the future backlash from governments, and people starting to get enlightened of their unethical behavior.
Hahaha lolnope. Nope nope nope.
If they want to kill Patreon all they have to do is stop allowing links to it to show up anywhere on their site.
This is part of why I share blog posts and link to them from Patreon, Fediverse, book of face etc, rather than posting directly to Patreon, most of the time. Walled gardens are always going to turn into cages eventually.
@katwylder I can only imagine that Facebook thinks that enough have never heard of either Patreon or Facebook’s many crimes. Otherwise what the heck were they smoking when they came up with this proposal?
@katwylder That 30% wouldn't be so bad if you got a cut of the ad revenue as well (much like on YouTube). Still, with Patreon describing their business model as "generous" and making noises that they want more control of their creators I could see them doing something like this too.
@katwylder sounds like a bargain! who would want to use this?
@katwylder I laughed at first, thinking this was a joke...
@katwylder who the hell would ever agree to this?
@gd525 Like I keep saying, they're mostly targeting people who are hopeful and inexperienced. They aren't going to snag seasoned creators, they're looking to prey on people who are just starting out.
@katwylder So anyone between 16-21?
@katwylder Incoming lawsuit for anticompetitive practices in 3... 2... 1... 🤞
@Elfie Or someone who's inexperienced and not business-savvy about creative fields.
@katwylder Wow, that's predatory.
@katwylder Terrible is exactly the right word for this - as is "unexpected". By now, this coming out of FB is 0% surprising, and frankly, people who go for it kinda screw themselves - if you're going to use services like this, you really, REALLY should do your homework. It's your livelyhood and you should be properly protective of it.
@katwylder people still trust facebook with money? I thought they lost that in like 2012 with all the crap they pulled.
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