«What, then, constitutes the alienation of labor?
First, the fact that labor is external to the worker, i.e., it does not belong to his intrinsic nature; that in his work, therefore, he does not affirm himself but denies himself, does not feel content but unhappy, does not develop freely his physical and mental energy but mortifies his body and ruins his mind. The worker therefore only feels himself outside his work, and in his work feels outside himself.» 1/3
«He feels at home when he is not working, and when he is working he does not feel at home. His labor is therefore not voluntary, but coerced; it is forced labor. It is therefore not the satisfaction of a need; it is merely a means to satisfy needs external to it. Its alien character emerges clearly in the fact that as soon as no physical or other compulsion exists, labor is shunned like the plague.» 2/3
«External labor, labor in which man alienates himself, is a labor of self-sacrifice, of mortification. Lastly, the external character of labor for the worker appears in the fact that it is not his own, but someone else’s, that it does not belong to him, that in it he belongs, not to himself, but to another.» 3/4
«Just as in religion the spontaneous activity of the human imagination, of the human brain and the human heart, operates on the individual independently of him – that is, operates as an alien, divine or diabolical activity – so is the worker’s activity not his spontaneous activity. It belongs to another; it is the loss of his self.»
– Estranged Labour, in Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844 by Karl Marx
As heard on Thinking Allowed, https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b2kpm0
Problem still unsolved. Sadly, I had never heard of this passage before. That’s because I never managed to read much of Marx except for the communist manifest. But that quote totally resonates with me. And it’s inversion is what we see a lot of these days: people telling each other to do the things they love to do, to find a job that agrees with them. As if such a thing existed! If people do it for love, they’ll do it for free. That’s not work.
@kensanata That's the typical alienation from work argument by Marx. You can read more about it in Das Kapital if you can get past the totally dull presented theory of value...
@ckeen I never got past the dull part! 😢
@megfault @kensanata Yes I can recommend this!
@ckeen @megfault I didn’t find it very convincing. It argues convincingly that we work too much (bullshit jobs and all of that), and that part I agree with. But «and I think this is the crux of the matter and the revolutionary new departure — we have to take what useful work remains and transform it into a pleasing variety of game-like and craft-like pastimes, indistinguishable from other pleasurable pastimes» has to work for so much of civil society!
@ckeen @megfault I’m thinking dentists, doctors, insurance, building – I want to benefit of the fruit of increased productivity, I don’t want to go back to an agricultural society. That’s why I’d like to focus more on small, incremental changes. Let us start by reducing working hours. Let us start handing out a universal basic income in order to share the fruits of our labor more fairly.
Apparently this already happens with older professionals in Germany, a middle aged friend of mine (alas, no longer alive) ended up remotely supporting Deutsche Bahn signalling and telecoms for Bavaria via a VPN and his home PC in Cambridge, as everyone else there who had the specialist skills plus sufficient knowledge of German *and* English had already retired, and as a freelancer he hated to turn down work (another problem is disparities across countries)
I also notice middle aged and seniors in Germany seem to have a *lot* more spare time than those of a similar age in UK, especially during the important period between late middle age and old age (before anything too bad goes wrong with them and they are admitted to the care facilities).
In UK many people are still working or have been handed a grandchild to look after (due to their adult offspring working long hours).
(maybe there are less children in DE?)
@kensanata @ckeen @megfault @vfrmedia I would imagine that rather than "fewer children" this is more "better work/life balance across age groups" but I'm not familiar enough with German demographics to say.
Every job my spouse has had since I've known him has required him to waive the EU working time directive. (Requiring this is illegal, but basically unenforced.)
@kensanata Yeah. And he gets paid a day rate, so it's not like the extra hours are compensated :-(
@artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault @vfrmedia German demographics are a catastrophy. People are too old. We would need about 400K new young people per year to be able to do the same jobs in the future. But things are bad already...
@ckeen @artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault
its not just ageing but it seems the young people who are currently in Germany are put under immense pressure to "work hard" - i.e a first degree isn't enough, they all need a masters now etc, and understandably these young people might not want to start families of their own (also becoming a big problem in SE Asia)
@vfrmedia @artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault Working in academia induces a lot of insecurity due to short term contracts (often ~6 months only).
The state is one of the worst employers here...
@kensanata @megfault @vfrmedia @ckeen I didn't mean "fewer children now compared to previous generations"; rather, I'm not certain there are fewer children in DE than UK just because of @vfrmedia 's observation that older people in UK are often looking after grandchildren.
@kensanata @megfault @vfrmedia @ckeen Fewer children relative to previous generations is probably true in many places. My spouse regularly works uncompensated overtime on 6-month contracts to *stay employed at all* and he's in his 50s and works in tech.
@artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault @vfrmedia In
In 2016 there have been 792 131 new humans in Germany. There were 695,233 live births in England and Wales in 2014, a decrease of 0.5% from 698,512 in 2013.
@artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault @vfrmedia So about equal...
@artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault @vfrmedia There were 696,271 live births in England and Wales in 2016, a decrease of 0.2% from 2015.
@kensanata @megfault @vfrmedia @ckeen Right, Germany does have a higher overall population too, but as you say it's roughly equivalent. So: grandparents looking after grandkids in the UK must be due to something other than the existence of more grandchildren here.
@artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault @ckeen
From what I see on German TV and documentaries (admittedly from the public service broadcasters and the Catholic K-TV station, both of which are carefully curated to put across a positive image of the country, the rôle of grandparents is highly valued, but I'm not sure if they end up always financially contributing to raising the grandchildren which is common in UK (maybe they do..) >>
@vfrmedia @artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault From my own experience, grandparents are quite involved, if not by donating time, almost always financially. But the work issue is separate I think.
@ckeen @artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault
what I do also see is that people in late middle age in Germany (and their neighbours in NL and CH) really do seem to have much more spare time for their hobbies (electronics, restoring old computers, amateur radio, building elaborate toys for cats and dogs, wildlife spotting and wandering in the woods etc..), this generation are also (admirably) keeping their independent websites/blogs very much alive and active..
@vfrmedia @artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault Or...they can just goof off more at work...
@ckeen @artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault
I'd always thought this was /harder/ in Germany than the UK, but have noticed in many cases the hobbies are in some ways related to their work, so maybe its tolerated (or these people are senior managers/owners of the company so can afford to take the time off).
@elomatreb @vfrmedia @megfault @kensanata @artsyhonker
Is the UK that different?
@elomatreb @artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault @vfrmedia legal shenanigans aside, what do the UK people do with their creative energy?
@ckeen @elomatreb @artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault
in the UK much depends on region, age and social status. East of England (where I live) has cultural similarities with DE, NL and DK (being just across the sea!) but its still much more common to work until age 70+ (although after 30-40 you are more likely to be able to work flexible or on standard hours).
There doesn't seem to be as much creative energy here compared to mainland Europe, hobbies mostly involve cars and fishing..
@ckeen @elomatreb @artsyhonker @kensanata @megfault
trainspotting, making model railways, amateur radio and nature watching are also popular here, as are arts and crafts (there is some gender stereotyping but at the same time I do know female trainspotters and male artists), but these hobbies increasingly seem to be accessible to the middle aged who have got professional employment and can (sometimes) afford to step back from the ratrace..
@elomatreb @megfault @kensanata @artsyhonker @ckeen
coincidentally I have been watching "Meister Eder und sein Pumuckl", but from there got the idea that the Stammtisch was for mostly older people in some village to sit round and drink beer and eat lots 😆, but I could see they were all from the skilled trades of the Munich suburb the TV show is set in (was it really still like that in late 1980s?)
@vfrmedia @elomatreb @kensanata @artsyhonker @ckeen haha yes older people drinking beer ^^
here is a younger and more modern stammtisch: https://pystada.github.io/
@megfault @elomatreb @kensanata @artsyhonker @ckeen
we *did* have two similar things here (one for an environment action group, the other for an art collective using Arduino/Processing etc, I was involved in both to some extent) but alas both no longer happen because the core people all worked for British Telecom research here and they got laid off and either ended up taking jobs with *longer* hours or moved away from the area..
@vfrmedia @elomatreb @megfault @kensanata @artsyhonker Well yes, and it is still happening :)
@artsyhonker ouch! 😢